The heartfelt journey of caring for parents with neurological disorders with actor, film maker and advocate Berlin Lu

 
 


Welcome to Season 2 of The Brain Game Changer podcast. I am your host, Melissa Gough.  In this week's episode I had the humbling and heartfelt opportunity to speak with Actor, Film Maker and Mental Health Advocate Berlin Lu.

Berlin shares with us the journey of being a carer to his parents, both with a diagnosis of individual neurological disorders, schizophrenia and dementia. He guides us through growing up as a child into adulthood, and the experiences he encountered. 

Berlin discusses losing his father as a teenager and his coping strategies during that time. Acting has provided a creative outlet for Berlin and we talk about those opportunities, his journey of healing and his purpose to create more awareness and education about mental health for  many people so they do not feel alone. 

I have so much respect and admiration for Berlin in sharing this journey. An amazing human being! 

 

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Email: thebraingamechanger@gmail.com

Follow @berlinluu on Instagram

  • Melissa Gough 0:04

    Welcome to The Brain Game Changer: where heartfelt stories, awareness and education can change the game. My name is Melissa and in each episode, I talk with inspiring humans and organisations from across the globe, who share significant adversities, triumphs after tragedy, and those game changing moments to provide you with some useful tools and resources to take with you into your everyday life.

    In this week's episode, I had the humbling and heartfelt opportunity to speak with actor, filmmaker and mental health advocate Berlin Lu. Berlin shares with us the journey of being a carer to his parents, both with the diagnosis of individual neurological disorders, schizophrenia and dementia. He guides us through growing up as a child into adulthood, and the experiences he encountered. Berlin discusses losing his father as a teenager, and his coping strategies, during that time. Acting has provided a creative outlet for Berlin and we talk about those opportunities, his journey of healing and his purpose to create more awareness and education about mental health for many people, so they do not feel alone. I have so much respect and admiration for Berlin and sharing this journey, an amazing human being. Let's get into the interview.

    Melissa Gough 1:25

    Good morning, Berlin. What an honour it is to have you with us today. Thank you for your time.

    Berlin Lu 1:29

    Thank you very much, Melissa. Pleasure to be here.

    Melissa Gough 1:32

    I only met Berlin a little while ago, at The Focus On Ability Short Film Festival at the Melbourne screening here at Crown Casino. Berlin had his short film featured and it is called 'She Made Me.' Now that day, I watched a lot of short films, but this film still sits with me today. I was so honoured that I got to meet Berlin and his partner, Alex. I'm just going to get you to share a little bit about that film.

    Berlin Lu 2:03

    Thank you, Melissa. I was going to say how touched I was seeing how people react to watching the short film 'She Made Me.' So it's about a young carer in his late teens. He struggles trying to care for his mother with schizophrenia, and also set a good example for his young, eight year old sister. It comes from a very personal place where growing up my own mother developed schizophrenia. As a young child, I didn't believe it was a mental illness. My mum said that it was a gift that she had from God, she could hear voices. As a child, you don't question that you believe what your parents will tell you. So, she was forced into hospital and it was very traumatic, and I thought it was really wrong, how she was treated. Over the years, as I grew up, by the time I was 18, I finally came to terms that actually my mum does need help, and these voices were taken over her life, where she wouldn't eat, sleep, look after herself, at the point of ending her life rather soon.

    Tying back to the short film, this different perspective of when I was 18, how I tried to care for my mum, compared to when I was a young child and actually thinking my mum was special and did not believe that she had any kind of mental illness. So that was the same son, but the way I perceived my mum's voices in schizophrenia is very, very different. If you watch the film, 'She Made Me' you'll see the dynamic of a young boy named Jamie compared to a younger little sister, Naomi, as an eight year old, and how they struggle and try to be there for their mother.

    Melissa Gough 3:55

    Berlin, thank you so much for sharing. I know we're touching on many layers of personal vulnerability. I admire the fact that you're sitting here and holding space with me to share your journey. So Naomi is sort of like the eight year old you and Jamie is you as a late teenager. As you said, you know, when we're young, our parents are our idols. They're our heroes. They are providing the tools and the foundations of what we learn life to be like. I'm just going to ask though, how would you describe just sort of everyday interactions and the relationship with your mom, when you were young, as you talked about, you thought she was special, and she shared lots of delusional storytelling. But as a young child, you think this is sort of like fantasy and fantasy play almost. How would you describe you, young with your mum? What was sort of going on at the time?

    Berlin Lu 4:47

    That's a very insightful question. As a child growing up, my mum was the one that was leading. She was the one that was like the breadwinner or the one that's taking care of everyone. My father was ageing, and he had dementia, and his mental health was deteriorating. My mum, despite the schizophrenia, she was very, very capable, just pushing things through and keeping the family together. My mum would tell me so many stories, stories from books that she read when she was a child in China, and all these stories that she collected and shared.

    They're almost like parables. They always had a message about how to be kind or loving. And what's the difference between good and bad, and she talked a lot about morals. So she set a very strong moral compass for me. That did not deviate just because she had schizophrenia. So there was that side where she set a really good example. She worked really hard and was always dedicated, and whatever she did, and looked after me, but then there was this other side, where she would be so immersed in hearing her voices.

    Later in my life, I found that my mum doesn't actually see things. She hears these voices from different spirits and gods and demons and devils and sometimes 10/20/30 different voices at a time. She doesn't question that to be, 'this is weird, I'm hearing this voice from this god from somewhere is real or not. There is no insight, the question that she will take it as true as you are here right now with me talking to me, and you exist. So that god that's talking to her that does exist for her, and she'll tell me these things as a child, and I believed that they were real. Before I had said to you, like, I thought my mum was special, and that she had this gift to hear voices. She also made me believe that I was special, not that I could hear voices, but to make a difference in the world when I grew up.

    Sometimes the belief of being special could be strange. When I was six or seven years old, god told her that I'm going to become prime minister and I would go around in grade one as a seven year old telling my friends that I'm going to be Prime Minister, and the other kids would just throw balls at me saying that I'm stupid. But I think, all kids at some point will have this like complete faith, they just believe whatever their parents tell them. There's just no doubt. So mum really instilled in me this audacious belief to be anything I could be. Then later I grew up, and reality sunk in and you really doubt yourself. But that's a couple things growing up with my mom.

    Melissa Gough 7:27

    Well, thank you. It's a vulnerable lens. There's many layers to schizophrenia, it is about delusions and not being able to see, feel and function just clearly in everyday life. I sort of admire what you've just said, though, it's almost like two sides to her in the capacity that she could, she was still trying to instil into her son, you know, the morals and values of human life and the journey that we walk with it. Then at the same time, she's also showing you the side of her that is dealing with schizophrenia. So you are also experiencing many different layers and experiences that you're trying to shape as your journey from a child into adulthood. I'm also just going to share that Berlin, he doesn't have any siblings, he was experiencing all this on his own, which as I sit in front of him, I can only just admire. But I'm going to ask the question. So when did you start to experience in your teens that you're like, hang on my thought process, my belief system, everything that I'm getting shown now is sort of getting challenged, and I'm trying to understand it. When did that sort of start taking shape for you?

    Berlin Lu 8:43

    Before you mentioned how there were two sides to my mum, one side where she was really teaching me values, and then the other side where she made me believe and there were these fantasies, I haven't really processed that myself until like, just now to share with you. It makes me think that there's actually another side. Even when I was seven, eight years old, my mum had a lot of paranoia. The schizophrenia and the voices that you hear, make you believe so many things, and oftentimes, it can be amazing things. It makes you think that you could do anything, and my mum believed that she needed to build churches for God, then she would be paranoid of people trying to kill us.

    So as a seven, eight year old kid, I was constantly hearing my mum saying, 'Berlin you have to be careful of this person or that person, they might try and kill you, and I believe that too! I would very rarely ever be able to go to another kid's home, never had a friend come over to my place. Mum, dad and myself, we really kept very private. But there was this friend that I made and his name was Remin. He invited me over to his place and he's Chinese and his parents were really good to me. Then his parents met my mum and they got along well, and then all of a sudden my mom says, 'Berlin you can't be friends with him because his parents have been bribed by some really bad people, and that boy Remin, his parents, they want to harm us. You can't be friends with them and just block off their friendship. Then they gave gifts to my parents, and then my mum actually went over and gave the gift back to them. We're not accepting this because you've been bribed to try and be nice to us.

    I'm not going to be dramatic and say heartbreaking, but it hurt a lot. Like, how could this be true that my friend and his parents have been bribed to be friends with me, and wanting to actually have a grand scheme to harm my mum. But because my mum believed it, I had to accept that it's true. Later on, when more crack started to appear, I suppose it was when I was 13, or 14, mum was first admitted into a mental hospital, and that was a shock to me. I came home from high school and mum wasn't at home, just by dad at the couch, and my dad was just completely exhausted. By that point, his dementia was really serious. He couldn't distinguish time and where he lived and when to eat, or go to the bathroom. It was just him at home, and he said, 'the police took her and put her into hospital, there's probably a little bit to go into there, but I'll just skip along and just say that, still, even at 14, I felt my mom shouldn't have been in hospital and that she did not have schizophrenia. My mum denied it too. It really took me till the age of around 17/18 to grasp and be like, 'okay, maybe there's people that are trying to kill us, and maybe that's not true, not real.

    Melissa Gough 11:36

    It's understandable to have that thought process. This is your mum, it's someone who you love very much. I feel it's normal behaviour, to not want to come to the realisation of something so significant, something so strong that, you know, was impacting all of your lives in a major way.

    Berlin Lu 11:57

    I was in denial for many, many years. Yeah.

    Melissa Gough 11:59

    That's understandable to be in denial, and you're also trying to digest, you know, mental health. It's many variances, it's many layers, it's many complexities. As much as there's textbook definitions and textbook symptoms, it can also present itself so differently in each person. It goes in ebbs and flows. It's not structured every day, it also probably gets heightened or triggered, depending on external influences as well in life.

    Berlin Lu 12:30

    Yeah, totally.

    Melissa Gough 12:31

    As much as we're highlighting your mum, you talk about the fact that your dad had dementia, and it's very heavy onset, and he's declining. When you're around 15/16 years old, you lost your father.

    Berlin Lu 12:49

    When I was 15, my father went missing three times. It was always my mum, my dad, myself, we'd be going somewhere, and then my dad might go missing.We can't find him and he won't come home because he doesn't remember his address, and we've had times where the police will look for him. After a day, maybe two days, they find him and bring him back home. We had enough signs to know that this is probably beyond what I can do as a 15 year old and what my mum can do. By the third time my father went missing, mum, Dad myself, we went grocery shopping and then dad was tired and mum said to dad,' oh, you can sit here at the bench and wait for us while we quickly get some groceries and come back out.'

    I remember that moment so clearly, that it's happened two times before when dad's gone missing, are we really going to try this again? Have him wait outside while we go and get some groceries at Coles. I had that thought, I didn't question my mum and I went with her into Coles. Sure enough, when we came out, my dad's got my heart sinking and it's so scary and of course for my mum too. We're just searching for my dad, no idea where he is. We report this to the police, and a day goes by. The second day goes by, a third day goes by, no signs of dad. Then on a Friday night I hear a knock on the door and I feel this rush of excitement thinking that the police are here, and they found my dad.

    Opened the door and I saw the police but I didn't see my dad. They say to me, is your mum home? Can we speak to her? My mum doesn't speak English, so I had to translate and they said they're very sorry they found a man of your father's description, and this man suffered a fatal head injury. He was run over by a car and we believe this man is your husband.

    It's the saddest moment of my life! Just to tell my mum that she broke down, it was brutal. We actually had to go to the coroner that next morning, Saturday morning. We got there to the morgue and met the corona. We had to identify the body just to confirm if it is my dad that died, and it was. Looking at a lifeless body and seeing my dad's face, head, like completely crushed! My mum still said to me that my father can be resurrected like Jesus, and I believed it, and I waited. I was hoping that within three days, my father, who had been hit by a car and died, could come back to life. I waited for weeks and months, until eventually I accepted that it's not going to happen. My mum didn't say that, because she wanted to make me get over it quicker, she believed it, too. So can you imagine how painful it would have been for her to pray and trust in God and thinking that the love of her life can be alive again, and be disappointed. No one in my high school knew my father died, didn't tell the teachers. I went to school on Monday after going to the morgue on Saturday. On Monday, I went back to school and pretended that everything was just normal, and that's how we dealt with that

    Melissa Gough 16:01

    Berlin, thank you for sharing such a vulnerable and significant moment in your life, I can only begin to understand what that was like. Thank you for being in this space and sharing that event that occurred. Turning up to school and just getting on with things was this also your way of not wanting to admit that it happened or your family wanted to keep it private? Did it get to a point where you did share what had happened with peers and teachers, and were able to get some support at that time?

    Berlin Lu 16:30

    It took me at least three years before I told anyone. So no one knew anything about it. Why? (Berlin asks himself). There was the hope that my dad could come back to life. So why would you tell people? Two, you're just so used to keeping things private, between her mum, dad and myself, it’s just what happens to stays between us. There was this feeling of embarrassment. In many cultures in Asia, particularly in China, it's about showing face, or losing face, if people look down on you, if you act a certain way, or if people know that your father had dementia, if your mum has some certain mental issues. My thinking was, 'oh, I'm strong.' If I don't say anything, I keep it to myself, and I can overcome it, but actually it was quite weak.

    Berlin Lu 17:25

    I'm not sure if the word is weak, it's probably survival! At the time you are surviving with the tools and the ability that you could at the time. One thing I would not call you, Berlin, is weak. I think you were just in survival mode of functioning through things that teenagers shouldn't have to experience.

    Berlin Lu 17:42

    If there was more awareness about it, about mental health and other young carers or parents struggling with mental health challenges, I would like to think that, you know, more awareness around this in high school that maybe my young self, when I was 15/16, might have shared a little bit. It might have helped me heal a little bit sooner instead of taking many years to do so, and I feel like I'm not alone. I feel that there's many people who have struggled and kept it to themselves and people who have absolutely suffered more than I have, and just hope that we can all make a difference in some way.

    Melissa Gough 18:27

    I'm going to share with the listeners that while Berlin was going through all these different adversities and challenges, you know, throughout his teenage life, he did finish Year 12. He then went on to study accountancy at Melbourne University. Kudos to you, a credit to you that while this was going on in your everyday life, in your home, in a space that's supposed to be safe and a sanctuary you are achieving these milestones. However, one thing that we've discussed when I met you at the festival, you have a passion for film, a passion to create, a passion to share stories through filmmaking and through acting. You ended up going to Northern America and Canada for a couple of years. How did that opportunity presented itself? Because I mean, you've got a pretty impressive resume so far. You've been on Supernatural, iZombie. Supergirl, you've also been in some award winning films. How did that opportunity present itself to you?

    Berlin Lu 19:37

    When I finished high school then went to university and I did accounting and finance at Melbourne University. I only barely scraped into that course! Going into Melbourne University was significant for my mother or Chinese parents. They like a good university!

    Melissa Gough 19:50

    I'm hearing this!

    Berlin Lu 19:52

    So I got in by the slimmest of margins, but accounting and finance was not my first preference, I had. I had the typical medicine, dentistry, maybe commerce law, double degree up there, my preferences and commerce accounting finance was a bit lower down my list. Fast forward, I passed everything and tried to get through it all and did the three year bachelor degree and was very fortunate to have been hired by a professional accounting firm KPMG. I did four years full time there. I struggled a bit, but overall I did well, and from my mum's perspective, she was proud of me.

    Melissa Gough 20:30

    In her eyes, you had made it you would take boxes in her world?

    Berlin Lu 20:34

    No, the most important box is to have kids! So that's something that I'm making her wait for! At KPMG, I was a senior consultant, and I really liked the people. But I wasn't fulfilled, nothing to do with working in corporate, I had a yearning for something very creative. Acting was something I just loved as a kid, and going to amateur theatre towards the latter stages of my corporate career. Tried student projects, indie films, got into an Aussie TV show, 'Tomorrow When The War Began, to play a small role and and just imagined, well, maybe I can do this, and maybe what if I can, like, play more significant roles and actually have a career as an actor. I asked to take a career break, a sabbatical, one year off. In that year off, which was in 2016, I did everything I could, in terms of going to different schools to study acting, trying different projects. Later around October, November, I went off to Vancouver, and I never looked back.

    Melissa Gough 21:44

    So how did the opportunity come about getting to Canada and pursuing more acting?

    Berlin Lu 21:49

    I applied for a working holiday visa, and went over there at the end of 2016. At first, I was thinking of going there for two years, and spent most of that time by myself,and come back when I can take care of mum. But she felt very sad and didn't want me to leave her. I brought her over to Vancouver, and from two years became three years and for the most part three years, we ended up living together. During that time from 2016 to 2019, I really got immersed in the TV film industry in Vancouver and made some great friends who were filmmakers and actors. I didn't expect that not only would I focus on acting, that I would also grow as a filmmaker, and start writing my own stories.

    Melissa Gough 22:33

    Well, I'm going to say again, I've mentioned some of the miniseries and roles that you've been in, however, I’m going to highlight that you played the lead role in the real life portrayal of Shi Ming in the award winning film, 'The World Is Bright,' I mean, congratulations. As we stated earlier, that film won quite a few awards. In a different film in 2021, you won Best Australian actor at the AFIN International Film Festival. Congratulations!

    Berlin Lu 23:04

    Thank you so much.

    Melissa Gough 23:06

    That must have been quite a moment, as well as experiencing these acting opportunities where you're able to immerse yourself into something that brings you joy, and you're able to express your creative outlet. You know, we've highlighted everything that you've gone through throughout your life. Now it almost feels like Berlin is able to be who Berlin wants to be, and what makes him happy.

    Berlin Lu 23:32

    Acting is one way for me to express myself. It certainly is something that I love very, very much, but it doesn't encapsulate who I am. I am just being here right now, and I feel that my greater purpose could possibly be in something related to mental health. I did not choose to have parents with mental challenges such as my father with dementia, my mum has schizophrenia and to be in this world with my Chinese background and only child and what I've been through, I'm very open to see where life will take me into where I can make the most difference in. Acting is something that I really enjoy. I have thought sometimes, ‘what does acting really do for anyone? Aside from the personal kind of satisfaction and fun that you get. I have a mentor, Neville Christie, and he said to me, actors can make us feel, make us think, reflect, make us learn, even possibly change our behaviour. Great actors can do that, and I'm nowhere near that, but I hope to work towards that. If I can embrace my vulnerabilities and come from a truthful place, especially reflecting on my parents and the things I've been through and my personal fears and insecurities and be true to whatever character I'm playing, then that could possibly make some kind of difference. I'm also very open to sharing like this here. This is super, super meaningful to me to share with you, Melissa or to give back. If I could mentor a younger person, or anyone that could make it make some kind of difference to just, in a private way without needing to be seen by people and the accolades or awards that you describe it, that's if it happens, but what I am is really just kind of just being true to myself at this very moment.

    Melissa Gough 25:30

    Berlin, I think everything that you've just said in the person that you want to be, you're already more there than you realise. So we've just got one or two questions to go. Thank you, this has been phenomenal. Everything that you've shared in this interview, it is so humbling to sit opposite you as you share with such vulnerability and such rawness. So we're sitting here, it's the year 2022, you're creating a podcast as well. I'm really excited to hear about when that launches, and I'll be certainly plugging it out there and letting everyone know about it. I love the purpose and the mission that you're hoping to achieve, you know, getting the word out, especially about mental health. I've also met your lovely partner Alex, who is a beautiful soul. But what are we going to see from Berlin now going forward?

    Berlin Lu 26:22

    That's a great question. I'm not going to avoid the question about my podcast show. I've done a few interviews. Perhaps, if, if I'm lucky enough I might be able to interview you in the future.

    Melissa Gough 26:35

    I'd be honoured. It's a yes, it's already a yes!

    Berlin Lu 26:38

    That's a huge win for me then! Let's see what happens with... I would like to share it to the world, just like how you're sharing, and I want to learn from you. What I'm doing is just in its infancy. I'm collecting people's stories, people that I've met, like, I met you at the film festival, going back to my childhood, friends that I've met, and just people who have stories to share that touch upon mental health and their perspectives. Hopefully other people, the audience can listen and connect with that and feel that they're not alone. I haven't even decided what the title is, so it's very early days. Where I am going ahead from this year going into next year. One main focus is to grow as an actor. I recently booked a role in a thriller slash kind of horror movie. It's filming very soon in Melbourne, it's about two young men following a serial killer, and they do a documentary about the serial killer and the serial killer gives these filmmakers hints to follow him, he wants to be followed, and then kind of everyone gets killed. I am playing the serial killer.

    Berlin Lu 27:49

    Oh, wow! What a role!

    Berlin Lu 27:50

    Yes! I've never done anything like this before. But I'm actually quite excited about it.... to be bad, and, and have fun and be the psychopath I suppose.

    Melissa Gough 28:02

    I love the fact that you're stepping out of your comfort zone. I guess even as actors, we just assume that every role is doable and easy. But I guess as well, you've got the human element, you're totally stepping into, you know, an area unknown and sort of learning and evolving. As an actor. I think that's amazing.

    Berlin Lu 28:20

    It's very unpredictable and fun when you get to play different characters as an actor. I feel that from what you're hearing, as a teenager, as a child, I was so private and never shared. There was so much suppression, just emotionally and I suppose as an actor you're allowed to express and that for me is kind of cathartic, and I really enjoy it. There to make up for the lost time as a child.

    Melissa Gough 28:44

    Berlin, amazing things ahead for you, creating a podcast, creating awareness, putting your story out there, putting the stories out there of others. As humans, we can connect when we hear somebody else sharing their words, and we can resonate. I believe it'll just do so well and be incredibly successful because you are touching people's hearts and sharing the stories of others, and I think it's amazing that you do that. I'm excited for you, for your acting adventures going forward. I think we are only seeing a snippet of the bigger things that are coming for you and deserved. I love the fact also that what you've gone through is a continued healing journey, no matter the day, the year as we keep going forward. You're dealing with your journey and the different layers and you know, stepping into those spaces of being uncomfortable being vulnerable, those war wounds as I do talking marks and I feel you are only going to create so much for so many other people. You may not be the prime minister that your mum has spoken about, but I think you're going to be a speaker, you're going to be an advocate, you're going to be a voice, you're going to be so much for other people. I'm going to try not to get emotional now. But you're one of the most inspiring people that I've met in a long time.

    Berlin Lu 30:04

    I really need to show how I can express to you how I feel. I just want to highlight that it was only last year in May when you suffered a brain haemorrhage, and you could have died, right? Coming from that in just over a year, I find you so inspiring.

    Melissa Gough 30:21

    Oh, well, we've got a mutual appreciation society going on here. But I think, I feel that you and I are a little bit similar in the sense of we're on a road of healing and recovery, but we're also wanting to do it to create awareness. I think that's where you and I are quite similar. We're presenting this for all the different reasons, and all the different why’s that we're doing it. I think we have a very similar mission and a very similar purpose. I'm going to finish on the last question,I asked this question to everyone that I interviewed. The name of this podcast is called The Brain Game Changer: where heartfelt stories, awareness and education can change the game. As much as you have shared so many valuable tools here today, what is one piece of that golden nugget of information or advice that you'd like our listeners to take away with them today?

    Berlin Lu 31:13

    I often feel disappointed in myself, and it comes with this feeling of I'm so lost. Whatever I might come across, or sound like, I've been through so much as a carer and as an actor, as a filmmaker, etc, I'm often lost. I can't share advice to anyone, but I can share how I'm dealing with it. I feel that if I tell myself while I'm lost, that's okay. However I'm feeling, if I'm feeling down, then it's coming from somewhere, this feeling. Try to almost see yourself like a little child. Because I tried to grow up so quickly. As a teenager, I wanted to be an adult, and be strong and keep it all to myself and not share. But now as an adult, I feel, if I try and look at myself as a child and be like, it's okay. However low you're feeling and really, truly just accept it. Whatever, if it's so depressing or hurtful, regret, shame, pain, surely accept that feeling. It's coming from somewhere, and it's telling you something. If the emotion is genuine, if it's a genuine negative emotion, I don't think we should ignore it, and say, 'I am going to put this away, I might do something else, I need to feel better. I think we need to cover it up immediately to turn that negative feeling off. For me, let's say if I am lost, and straightaway turn that into a positive. Because I find that, if I really like to be humble and say' yeah, if I actually have any clue what I'm doing, and feel that then look within. Not always but sometimes, you talk about a nugget of information, that nugget of information is... I don't feel it is necessarily from anyone out there, it's actually within you. Give yourself enough time, enough patience, and most importantly enough love. If you love yourself, be kind to your inner child, you will find something inside you that will guide you and guide you to a place where you feel in your heart that you feel full, it's purposeful and you feel that it's right. So trust yourself, no matter how negative and how down you are, trust that given enough time, it will pass and better times are to come for you

    Melissa Gough 33:28

    Berlin, that is so beautifully said. Thank you so much. And thank you for today. I feel like I'm a better person after this interview.

    Berlin Lu 33:36

    It's truly an honour and a blessing to be here with you. Thank you Melissa.

    Melissa Gough 33:43

    Thank you for listening to this episode, and I hope you found the show really valuable. If you'd like to learn more about the podcast, our guests and the topics we discussed, please head over to our Instagram page @thebraingamechanger. Make sure to subscribe and tick those five stars so you never miss an episode. In the meantime, continue embracing those game changing moments. Have a great week and see you again soon. Take care.

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